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Post by daglazer on Jun 23, 2009 11:54:31 GMT -5
daglazer you make some arresting points as usual but i have to question thabeet's heart/attitude. from what i saw, admittedly not that much, he didn't seem to have that fire. almost like he'd rather be doing something else except that because he is 7'3" he might as well play basketball. besides he'd have a hard time getting back against the fast break. tony parker is pretty close to an elite point guard as is chauncy billups. subtract the 6 titles by the greatest player of all time and the average goes up that much more. moreover the knicks are sorely lacking in the leadership department. thabeet isn't one while all reports and rumors point to rubio having that quality, youth notwithstanding. Tony Parker is an all-star caliber PG, but he is not an elite HOF point. Billups is another very good, all-star caliber, caretaker PG, but not elite. Both Parker and Billups are both caretaker types who avoid turnovers and generally focus on feeding other players the ball. The creative points and the scoring points are the ones who do not win. It can happen, but it is harder. I ascribe to the dancing elephant theory of George Young, the former GM of the New York Giants. There are only so many talented athletes of a large size. So, when you have a chance to draft one of these dancing elephants, you do it. In basketball, the center is the dancing elephant. A center who can block shots and rebound is a rare thing. I will always want that player. Plus, the Knicks have not had a shotblocker on the roster since we traded Camby away. |
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Post by irish2u2 on Jun 23, 2009 12:20:02 GMT -5
George Young would make a lousy NBA GM.  I like players with size. If Thabeet was an elite level athlete and/or he had a non-stop motor like Olajuwan or Moses Malone I'd back the play of Kenny and DA in a moment. As it is right now Thabeet can do some good things right out of the box for the Knicks and he is one of the more NBA ready players in the draft. The thing is his ceiling isn't much past where he is at now because he isn't an elite athlete nor is he an Energizer Bunny. Now if Thabeet were available at #8 this would be a non-issue but at #2? I won't even bother with the NBA history of bigs picked this high just on their size and some ability who flamed brilliantly over the skies and took down a GM or two with them. Give me the guy with serious upside, who loves playing the game, who already has some elite skills, who has above average physical attributes and who could be a star down the road. Roll Da Dice! Miami did with Wade. Chicago did with Rose and New Orleans did with Paul. If luck be a lady that doesn't dance with us (meaning no-brainer decisions like Cleveland getting the #1 pick in a draft that has LeBron) because of serendipity then we need to make our own luck. Thabeet is safe. Safe is all right but living on the edge doesn't always mean you fall into the abyss. Sometimes it pays off big. Roll Da Dice!!!!! |
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Post by dk7th on Jun 23, 2009 13:58:46 GMT -5
daglazer you make some arresting points as usual but i have to question thabeet's heart/attitude. from what i saw, admittedly not that much, he didn't seem to have that fire. almost like he'd rather be doing something else except that because he is 7'3" he might as well play basketball. besides he'd have a hard time getting back against the fast break. tony parker is pretty close to an elite point guard as is chauncy billups. subtract the 6 titles by the greatest player of all time and the average goes up that much more. moreover the knicks are sorely lacking in the leadership department. thabeet isn't one while all reports and rumors point to rubio having that quality, youth notwithstanding. Tony Parker is an all-star caliber PG, but he is not an elite HOF point. Billups is another very good, all-star caliber, caretaker PG, but not elite. Both Parker and Billups are both caretaker types who avoid turnovers and generally focus on feeding other players the ball. The creative points and the scoring points are the ones who do not win. It can happen, but it is harder. I ascribe to the dancing elephant theory of George Young, the former GM of the New York Giants. There are only so many talented athletes of a large size. So, when you have a chance to draft one of these dancing elephants, you do it. In basketball, the center is the dancing elephant. A center who can block shots and rebound is a rare thing. I will always want that player. Plus, the Knicks have not had a shotblocker on the roster since we traded Camby away. as you know i trust your judgement about players, but thabeet seems awfully slow-footed to me. the point may be moot since many are figuring that neither thabeet not rubio will be around by 8. who would you take after they are gone if indeed they are? |
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Post by greatgates on Jun 23, 2009 14:06:55 GMT -5
George Young would make a lousy NBA GM. I like players with size. If Thabeet was an elite level athlete and/or he had a non-stop motor like Olajuwan or Moses Malone I'd back the play of Kenny and DA in a moment. As it is right now Thabeet can do some good things right out of the box for the Knicks and he is one of the more NBA ready players in the draft. The thing is his ceiling isn't much past where he is at now because he isn't an elite athlete nor is he an Energizer Bunny. Now if Thabeet were available at #8 this would be a non-issue but at #2? I won't even bother with the NBA history of bigs picked this high just on their size and some ability who flamed brilliantly over the skies and took down a GM or two with them. Give me the guy with serious upside, who loves playing the game, who already has some elite skills, who has above average physical attributes and who could be a star down the road. Roll Da Dice! Miami did with Wade. Chicago did with Rose and New Orleans did with Paul. If luck be a lady that doesn't dance with us (meaning no-brainer decisions like Cleveland getting the #1 pick in a draft that has LeBron) because of serendipity then we need to make our own luck. Thabeet is safe. Safe is all right but living on the edge doesn't always mean you fall into the abyss. Sometimes it pays off big. Roll Da Dice!!!!! |
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Post by daglazer on Jun 23, 2009 14:12:26 GMT -5
DK, I think that Ty Lawson is gong to be great and the best PG from this draft. So, since I am not in love with any player other than Blake Griffin, I would take him at 8.
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Post by daglazer on Jun 23, 2009 14:17:24 GMT -5
GG, a top notch shot blocker can save as many points as a top notch scorer. The Knicks give up 10-20 points a game just because there is nobody who can threaten to block a shot. Thabeet would easily block 2-3 shots a game and alter at least another 6. Plus, his mere presence would force teams to shoot more jump shots. Plus, he actually runs well for someone his height. He will get stronger and his post offense will improve.
Post offense is a skill that can improve over time if the player wants to work on it. My hunch is that Thabeet would work very nicely in the D'Anotni offense getting a lot of garbage boards. I am also quite confident that D'Antoni would get the most out of Thabeet on offense. He would really only need to score garbage points for us as long as he gets 10 boards and 2 blocks per game.
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Post by dk7th on Jun 23, 2009 16:16:13 GMT -5
DK, I think that Ty Lawson is gong to be great and the best PG from this draft. So, since I am not in love with any player other than Blake Griffin, I would take him at 8. so if a big man such as thabeet is not around you'd opt for a "pure" pg. i agree. the knicks have no spine, i.e. they are weak to non-existent at the point guard and center positions-- and yes that means i hold out zero expectations for curry even he drops to 270 pounds. ironman is high on tyreke evans, who manned the pg position somewhat successfully at 6'6" and looks to be quite a physical specimen especially if he can be coaxed into playing some genuine perimeter defense-- if you had a choice between the two, who would you choose-- lawson or evans? and why.... and what are your impressions of rubio? and while we're at it what are your impressions of gallinari? |
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Post by irish2u2 on Jun 23, 2009 16:23:04 GMT -5
There is another Rubio thread complete with a video courtesy of GreatGates. Judge for yourself.
Now between Evans and Lawson I take Evans. His size, athleticism and skillset are excellent and he's young so the areas he is not strong in he should get better. Lawson is more prepared now to be an NBA PG but like Duhon I think he is a guy whose career is built off the bench. Evans could be a star.
I agree with DA that a defensive center could have a huge impact on this team. So let's develop one. ; ) I wouldn't want to waste a top 5 pick on Thabeet and get the second coming off Kwame Brown. Wrangle JaVale McGee from the Wizards or work with Saer Sene who is 7' tall and athletic. If Thabeet is available at #8 then go with him. Unless Curry, Evans, Harden or Rubio is available too. ; )
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Post by kgooglog on Jun 24, 2009 18:33:11 GMT -5
Good morning gentleman. If I could add my two cents. Thabeet could very well be Zeke in the 21st century. Or he could be a flat role player like Sagana Diop or DJ Mbenga and might not be anything but a 8th string rotational player we spent too much on. For the last 8 or so drafts we keep passing on the best point guards the draft has too offer. for example as recently as last year we took Gallo over Gordon and every one play their best Spanish inquisition role until we found out Gallo can kinda play. For years we have never had an elite point guard on this franchise aside from Marbury and the previous closest being Mark Jackson and maybe Rod Strickland and Derek Harper too which is sad. The last thing we can do is afford not to at least try to take the best point guard before another lottery bound team wastes that same talent and you find out that OKC or Memphis has wasted about 7 years of this players life by not putting a playoff team around this nice player they recieve in the lotto. I said all that to say we have to take Rubio or Curry because they have future game changers written all over them. If we take Thabeet he would look good next to chris Bosh or amare but we dont have a Patrick Ewing as an assistant coach to teach Thabeet to play the pro game especially offensively. D'antoni isnt a great inspiring factor centers historically so how is Thabeet going to thrive on this teaam with no mentor. This is also why Curry, Evans, or Rubio would be better on this team and relegating Duhon to the bench where he belongs would make me happy because he isnt the player we need to make us playoff contenders. Duhon is overrated and Curry and Rubio may be too but the latter two play with passion that can't be taught and Duhon isnt as great defensively or offensively as he was tauted to be before we traded for him. I'd take Curry or Rubio with the second overall if we got that pick and the best available with the 8th. I'd even try to package the 2nd, the 8th and Nate to the Clippers for the 1st and maybe Eric Gordon if they'd listen. -Jason The last champ with an elite PG was Isiah and the Pistons. We have almost 20 years of evidecne that you do not need an elite PG So, I will always pass on a potential elite PG if I have a chance to find a true shotblocking center that can anchor the defense for the next 10 years. I have no doubts that Thabeet will be a Tyson Chandler, Sam Dalembert type center with the potential for more. Let me have that kind of player and this team is an instant playoff contender without messing up the cap to go get Lebron. DA is on the same plane of thinking with me on Hasheem Thabeet. We need a huge defensive presence in the middle and I commend Jason for his excellent post. That being said, I can live with Chris Duhon at the PG and as I've espoused before, LeBron makes the PG a tertiary issue, as far as I am concerned. If Walsh manages to wrangle the #2 from Memphis, we must fill the defensive lapses of last year, and no PG can do this. Thabeet is no Priest Lauderdale, and I know that this is a concern amongst many Knick fans. Hasheem blocks shots, rebounds, and runs the floor. Yes, he must learn to play 40 minutes and his motor is a valid issue. However, most "bigs" who are not in Dwight Howard condition, have to work on conditioning and Thabeet will run with Mike D'Antoni's system. The Knicks were last in blocked shots in the NBA, and this is because David Lee was not a presence in the middle. Neither was Chris Wilcox. Jared Jeffries defended against PGs. If NY can acquire the UConn Phenom at #2 (based on a hypothetical trade with Memphis), Donnie Walsh must pick him. Obtaining an injury-prone Ty Chandler or an expensive Sam Dalembert is an option, but one that seriously compromises the master plan of 2 elite FAs in summer 2010. Can we survive without any defense in the middle? I think all of us know that last season's post defense was laughable and a disgrace to Knick fans. This is not an indictment of David Lee, who played his ass off every night. It is a fact. Big men are a gamble and I know where Jason is coming from. Yes, we need a PG upgrade, but we need, IMHO, a defensive minded center who can and will alter the entire game for NY. Dwight Howard will not simply walk all over Thabeet, once the neophyte gets his NBA wings. I am with DA all the way when it comes to this team. If we stay at #8, we take the best player or PG available, unless Hasheem's stock drops dramatically. I love Lawson, to be honest with everyone, irrespective of his size. This kid is a freaking leader, gets everyone involved in the offense, and is already head and shoulders better than Duhon. I am certain that Evans and Rubio are as well. One of these guys will be there at #8. I want Walsh to pull a rabbit out of the hat, and get that #2 pick. Hasheem Thabeet is projected to be a Dikembe Motumbo, at the very least. I think he will be better than that. |
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Post by ReneNYG1 on Jun 24, 2009 19:04:29 GMT -5
If I trade to three I take Curry.
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