Monsters of D-NOT

[whensly]

Maybe I'm just not as up on the nba players as I used to be
but it seems like there used to be a LOT more Defensive specialists
than there are today.

guys like oak, michael cage, buck williams, mailman, rodman, the guy who flipped charlie ward
(what was his name?), the Davis brothers, basically power forwards with power defensive games.

sure we have KG and a few others today but it seems less and less, am I wrong?

[jbaer10314]

<< the guy who flipped charlie ward (what was his name?) >>

P. J. Brown.

[daglazer]

The hand check rules really changed that. It used to be that a big strong guy could dominate defensively through hand checks and physical play. Once the league toook away hand checks, it became about quickness. Thus, it is much harder to be a defnsive specialist.

[irish2u2]

Nov 19, 2009 11:50:49 GMT -5 daglazer said:

The hand check rules really changed that. It used to be that a big strong guy could dominate defensively through hand checks and physical play. Once the league toook away hand checks, it became about quickness. Thus, it is much harder to be a defnsive specialist.

Bingo!!

In conjunction with this and probably because of the Riley led Knicks the league does not allow the same brand of physicality we all know and love as old schoolers. Today you look at the guy wrong and you get whistled for a foul.

[whensly]

Thanks JB for refreshing my de-memory of PJ Brown.

I figured someone would mention hand-check rule but I am no so sure.
The handcheck rule a by-product of the 90's knicks and 80's Piston rough-housing, has given players more play in their games by
opening up space, but I always thought it effected the outside game more than down low. When I think of handcheck I think of Derek Harper who would hold-check, punch-check, close-line-check his man. Charlie Ward might not make it in the NBA today without a "handy" way of slowing the games down. Pete Myers made a living kicking guys arses on the perimeter but could not shoot a lick.

But the guys I mentioned did not seem to change their games post-hand check rule. if you go to games the good teams still seem to
beat the tarr out of the opponents inside and make them think twice about going to the hole. The Celts, Lakers, Magic, Cavs, are all really strong defensively, kick the crap out of opponents and funny thing, they're all top of the league contenders.

Sure you can't get away with as much as you used to in the nba a la "hand-checks" but the good teams seem to have key players
who play both sides of the ball.

I am just wondering for the sake of discussion if we can put the sea-change in the NBA entirely on the hand check rule?
I think a young Buck Williams, Horace Grant, Oak, Zo, even Gary Payton et al would do fine in the NBA today.
Sad we don't have more players who accept and excel on D.

[daglazer]

The handcheck rule affected post play also. You used to be able to hold a player on his hip with your hands. It made it very hard to make a move in the post since the defender could always know which way the offensive player would turn. Now, you have to use a forearm to hold position. This is much harder as it lets the offensive player get much closer to you and the basket. Thus, a quicker post player will excel over the stronger one. Plus, it is harder for the defender to knwo which way the offensive player is going to move.

[greatgates]

Nov 19, 2009 13:32:47 GMT -5 irish2u2 said:

Nov 19, 2009 11:50:49 GMT -5 daglazer said:

The hand check rules really changed that. It used to be that a big strong guy could dominate defensively through hand checks and physical play. Once the league toook away hand checks, it became about quickness. Thus, it is much harder to be a defnsive specialist.

Bingo!!

In conjunction with this and probably because of the Riley led Knicks the league does not allow the same brand of physicality we all know and love as old schoolers. Today you look at the guy wrong and you get whistled for a foul.

I didn't like that brand of physicality at all. just forearm a cutter never was bball to me. I'll admit its gone too far the other way now but watching Mase Oak X Dudley TCummings Ewing etc club people wasn;t watchable either.

[whensly]

I understand how do to the new more sensitive rules like hand check the players really need to be more athletic,
faster to clear space and have more hops to block and make shots, however.

you're (all) telling me that Zo, Horace Grant, Karl Malone et al would not have been able to be important players today?

I think we have bigger more athletic players but they are less coachable, and don't come in willing to do the dirty work,
for those of you who go to games, you know no matter what they say about handchecks and holds, it's crazy physical
mayhem under the basket.

[will1682]

For sure todays league is very soft. How often do you see a player throwing his arms up because a foul wasnt called today compared to 10-15 years ago? I recently pulled out my Knicks dvd and watched parts of the 94 ECF. In todays league, both starting lineups from that game would have fouled out before halftime.

[irish2u2]

A lot of excellent points.

I'm not talking about mugging type physicality because that isn't the game. I am talking about big players being able to use all their tools within the confines of the rules on both sides of the ball.

Right now it's an automatic foul if you get a rebound or even touch the ball when the guy is in front of you. Most of the time it likely is a foul except nowadays there are guys who can go straight up and grab the ball while behind a player without touching them. Their length and athleticism is so off the charts this does happen. And it's a foul every time. The refs are conditioned to certain responses. They let the law of averages rule and not their eyes.

I really despise NBA refereeing these days.

Do you really want to know why defense is passe now in the NBA? It isn't desire. Plenty of players invest at both ends of the court. It's a little bit fundamentals and coaching, it's a little bit the evolution of the athletes and it's a lot of David Stern doing what he thinks the marketing people will like the most.

Marketing shows defensive, grind it out teams who battle you 94' every possession might win championships but they lack style and panache and Stern will simply not tolerate that because it impacts butts in the seats. In fact anything that impacts the bottom line and Stern's convoluted image of what the NBA should be is strictly verboten. Stern is killing the game. Except the NBA makes a lot of money and so the game is healthy if you are an owner or Stern but for us fans it's it's another smack in the head from a sport that has become impossible for the middle class to see in person and almost impossible to watch if you are a true fan and student of the game.

Style over substance which is never a winning formula.

[irish2u2]

BTW, players like Malone, Grant, Zo, Payton, Buck Williams, Oakley, etc. would be successful today because everyone of them was off the charts in basketball IQ so they would adjust to the game and the way it is played today. Not every player can adjust but these guys could and would.

[dk7th]

it isn't only the hand check though that's huge. you can't tlk about defense without mentioning the no-calls on moving picks. i was taught that you have to set a pick that affords the defender i believe one and a half or perhaps even two steps (ironman or david can back me up on this) to react so that he can at least have a fighting chance of fighting OVER the pick. nowadays the picks are being set almost like blocks, but the original intent was not to block the defender so much as to slow the defender down.

of course what ameliorates this somewhat is the fact that there has been a decline in offensive skills, and in this instance it is the inability to shoot off the dribble. the whole point of the pick and roll is to put pressure on the defenders to make a decision: switch, fight over the pick, or sag off to play the pass to the roller? most shooters are not that accurate shooting off the dribble so the beauty of the pick and roll is obfuscated since it is a low percentage shot for so many who would otherwise benefit from having a pick set for them.

i don't know if any of you have noticed but it is very rare that a pick setter turns on his roll to the basket in the right direction. in other words, you're supposed to drop your outer foot-- or pivot on your inner foot-- in the direction of the dribbler, using the basket as your center point of orientation. this means simply turning 45-60 degrees or so instead of 120 degrees. most pickers turn the wrong way, losing that precious split second and ruining the timing of the play.

[daglazer]

Nov 20, 2009 8:00:36 GMT -5 @dk7th said:

it isn't only the hand check though that's huge. you can't tlk about defense without mentioning the no-calls on moving picks. i was taught that you have to set a pick that affords the defender i believe one and a half or perhaps even two steps (ironman or david can back me up on this) to react so that he can at least have a fighting chance of fighting OVER the pick. nowadays the picks are being set almost like blocks, but the original intent was not to block the defender so much as to slow the defender down.

of course what ameliorates this somewhat is the fact that there has been a decline in offensive skills, and in this instance it is the inability to shoot off the dribble. the whole point of the pick and roll is to put pressure on the defenders to make a decision: switch, fight over the pick, or sag off to play the pass to the roller? most shooters are not that accurate shooting off the dribble so the beauty of the pick and roll is obfuscated since it is a low percentage shot for so many who would otherwise benefit from having a pick set for them.

i don't know if any of you have noticed but it is very rare that a pick setter turns on his roll to the basket in the right direction. in other words, you're supposed to drop your outer foot-- or pivot on your inner foot-- in the direction of the dribbler, using the basket as your center point of orientation. this means simply turning 45-60 degrees or so instead of 120 degrees. most pickers turn the wrong way, losing that precious split second and ruining the timing of the play.

My memory is that it was 1 1/2 steps for the pick and the person setting the pick could not move. Calling moving picks has always been a problem and always been a source of more injuries than any other play. Hard fouls rarely result in injury on shots because the shooter usually knows that it is coming. Moving picks cause real injuries because you do not know it is coming.

As a big man setting a pick, rolling properly is hard. If you set a solid screen, then you let the defender hit you and it is hard to move your feet properly to roll. I always have had problems rolling after a pick. That is probably why you see so many players move the wrong way. It is actually easier to turn facing the defender than it is to spin and get the defender on your back.