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Post by ignitowsky on Jun 19, 2015 19:40:17 GMT -5
Bill, I have the highest respect for you, but I am very pissed off. I have chosen to vent my anger on Facebook, because, in my opinion, there are certain elements in our society, namely Fox News and the GOP, which pander to racists. They empower the racist. The enable the racists. And I have had my f-ing fill of it and I have chosen to no longer remain silent and to speak up. So, on I have posted many articles on Facebook which detail the ways in which Fox and the GOP are trying to take control of the narrative of the Charleston incident. Fox has tried to claim that the incident was not racially motivated, despite what the gunman said, but it was an example of Christian persecution. Rick Santorum echoed that ridiculous idea. Rick Perry went one step further, stating that Obama will use this tragedy to take people's guns away and that the incident was a result of drug abuse. The NRA blamed the preacher for his own death and the death of his church members, because, when he was a member of the South Carolina government, he fought for stronger gun controls and, as the NRA spokesman continued, if he and the other victims of this tragedy had simply packed heat, then this would have been avoided. And today, Fox News pushed the idea that the cause of this tragedy is due, in part, because we are too diverse a nation now and that we are threatened by non-American ideas. lastly, Fox and other media outlets are trying to portray this as a mental health issue. Please!!!! He may have some underlying issues, but racism is learned behavior, it is part of the legacy of this nation and of the South in particular. Trying to frame it as a mental health issue is an attempt to minimize the racial component of this tragedy and is an attempt, once more, by White society of avoiding the issues of systemic and institutionalized racism that are engrained into our nation from day one. Racism is hatred that is passed from one generation to the next. And it appears that racism is a tool used by Fox and by the GOP to rally the more unseemly elements of their base. I am using Facebook to "out" Fox News and the GOP. I am not the one promoting hate. That is not my agenda. I am merely trying to expose it. Yes, I am pissed, but please do not confuse my anger with hate. And if you don't see how the GOP and Fox uses racism to pander to the more unseemly elements of their base and of our nation, then I think that is part of the reason why racism will never be eliminated from our nation. Nic I quoted the wrong post but again I ask why is this directed at me? If you are pissed by all means vent. But I am hoping I got this all wrong and your venting is not aimed at me. If you want to know how I feel about something then ask. Don't assume. But let me give you a little heads up. People who stereotype are biased too. Demonizing an entire political party by labeling them seems the other side of the same problem you are protesting. Not all Republicans are bad. Not all Democrats are good. Not all white folks are bigots. FWIW, some of those Fox people are stone cold nuts but they have their liberal counterparts too. Like I said I hope I misinterpreted you because this whole post seems totally out of left field. it's for that very reason that I've stopped watching any of the political shows on Fox or MSNBC. in my opinion what they do on MSNBC is as bad as what they do on Fox. they point fingers and turn everything into us against them. it's what's wrong with this country right now. it's not about us against them. it's about us, and how do we fix this mess that we've gotten ourselves into.
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Post by babylon5 on Jun 19, 2015 19:48:20 GMT -5
Bill,
I am not directing my rant at you. You are merely the unfortunate muse, so to speak.
Bill, I know that I can be a huge pain in the ass. I know this, because I feel the need to challenge people's preconceived notions, as I hope that they will challenge mine.
To change the world, to really change the world, IMHO, we have to challenge our preconceived notions and break away from them when they no longer serve the needs of our society.
Racism in America is a purely White American construct and until we find a way to rid the nation of this nasty legacy of racism in our nation, these tragedies will continue.
This is the year 2015 and Black people can go to a pool, buy a cigarette, or a pack of skittles, drive a car or go to church without literally putting their lives at risk.
And it is getting worse.
This is no out of left field, Bill. This is reality in America.
But like you, despite my outburst, I am hopeful that if we truly want to stop this crap, we can. But you don't move forward if your mind is still stuck in the past.
Time to break our preconceived notions.
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Post by ReneNYG1 on Jun 19, 2015 19:56:29 GMT -5
I don't watch News and I don't read newspapers and I'm more inform for it they are all controlled for specific view points instead of reporting the truth,the corruption is ifinite throughout all those mediums,the internet has the truth if you know how to find it and it's easy really.I study the economy everyday and night so I get some through that mostly worldly events.Rand Paul is the most honest guy or gal we can vote for.Trust me on that.
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Post by axios on Jun 19, 2015 20:39:53 GMT -5
I grew up in Hempstead NY, I luckily had a 2 parents who were there it tell me to study and and do the right thing. I am white, half my friends are and still are black and Latino. This is a ruse, controlled by the media, and above them the puppet masters. While black is pitted against white, the powers that by are selling uS down the river with open borders and and bringing down the average family's wages. As sad as this disgusting act is, no one blinked this week while another 17 black people were killed just in Chicago. Why?It's not a shiny object, the race hustlers and politicians can't get airtime. It's not black against white it's the ruling class against the rest, and they are playing it well. This gov has done much to destroy the underclass by giving and promising enough. Unemployment in the minroty community is at all time highs, single parent households all time highs, btw, also in our very own white communities. There are no jobs, and if there is, it is for min wage or part time. This is on purpose. When Lyndon Johnson said " I'll have the niggers voting for the democrats for the next 60 years, he left out the poor whites in that disgusting line". I pray we can throw the bums out, look out for our own, black and white, we have more in common with each other than the politicians and the rich bureaucrats. I don't put up with racists, bc I know I have more in common with my black and Latino brother than the people pulling the strings who are trying to get us to after each other while they clean up.
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Post by ReneNYG1 on Jun 19, 2015 21:02:14 GMT -5
Great post Axios,right on brother.It all starter a long time ago the control is out of control now they own everything now,all elections are bought from both sides so it doesn't matter.We need a new honest leader to wipe out the criminals.
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Post by jbnewyork162 on Jun 19, 2015 22:28:07 GMT -5
I grew up in Hempstead NY, I luckily had a 2 parents who were there it tell me to study and and do the right thing. I am white, half my friends are and still are black and Latino. This is a ruse, controlled by the media, and above them the puppet masters. While black is pitted against white, the powers that by are selling uS down the river with open borders and and bringing down the average family's wages. As sad as this disgusting act is, no one blinked this week while another 17 black people were killed just in Chicago. Why?It's not a shiny object, the race hustlers and politicians can't get airtime. It's not black against white it's the ruling class against the rest, and they are playing it well. This gov has done much to destroy the underclass by giving and promising enough. Unemployment in the minroty community is at all time highs, single parent households all time highs, btw, also in our very own white communities. There are no jobs, and if there is, it is for min wage or part time. This is on purpose. When Lyndon Johnson said " I'll have the niggers voting for the democrats for the next 60 years, he left out the poor whites in that disgusting line". I pray we can throw the bums out, look out for our own, black and white, we have more in common with each other than the politicians and the rich bureaucrats. I don't put up with racists, bc I know I have more in common with my black and Latino brother than the people pulling the strings who are trying to get us to after each other while they clean up. I admire your passion Axios and like what you said. But for respect of decency and well me, since I can't speak on behalf of anyone else here, please don't use the N word ever again here. Preferably not ever and I know you were supposed to be quoting someone but yeah please don't ever use that word. Thank you.
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Post by axios on Jun 20, 2015 7:12:27 GMT -5
Hey JB I used it on purpose to show how disgustingly racist these people are, I'm sorry if I have offended anyone, was kind of my intention though, bc they are vile. Prayers go out to those people, which I left out.
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Post by rxmeister on Jun 20, 2015 7:29:19 GMT -5
Don't know what I can say that's already been brilliantly said in this thread. When this happened I thought Fox News would just say this guy was insane and racism had nothing to do with it, but even those pieces of shit have amazed me with their stance. And the white judge who felt sorry for this human garbage? Rick Perry, a Presidential candidate, actually called this an accident before his publicity team scrambled around to rephrase his comments. These good people went to church one morning, a place that should be the safest place in the world and were gunned down by a racist piece of garbage. Who guns down an 87 year old woman? Put him in prison in general population and let the inmates dispense justice. I'm not as optimistic as Bill about racism dying out. You have racist parents teaching hatred to impressionable children and I don't see anything changing anytime soon.
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Post by babylon5 on Jun 20, 2015 11:04:42 GMT -5
axios,
I do believe that racism is a tool used as a device to divide and conquer the people. Both parties have a history of using racism, but the GOP and Fox are, by far, the worst culprits of them all.
The simple idea that "open borders" threatens us playing into the racist narrative of Fox and the GOP. If you want the flow of immigrants to stop, then punish the corporations which benefit from employing them. These companies are very willing to pay fines when they are caught hiring "illegals." The well established practice of hiring "illegals" helps weaken the unions, thus helping to keep wages down here in the US.
After the implementation of NAFTA, wages in Mexico, which were already low, became lower and the unemployment rate in Mexico soared. NAFTA also impacted the Mexican subsistent farmer very harshly. US Big Agriculture was able to sell its produce in Mexico cheaper thus forcing farmers to either seek jobs outside of Mexico or grow coca or marihuana for the drug lords.
Most Mexicans, given the choice of paying the coyotes a large sum of money to make a very dangerous trip into the US, would much rather stay in their country, if they are provided a stable income.
It is a very complex issue, but the GOP renders this issue into another way to scapegoat victims of an internal economic crisis that the US had a huge hand in creating. You have Donald Trump calling Mexican drug dealer, rapist and he, I am sad to say, isn't the only one. In the last GOP presidential debate, they were calls for a double electric fence and the crowds cheered the idea. Then there is Fox News which promoted the crazy idea that immigrants will bring Ebola into the nation, or that ISIS will enter the nation. Fear and hate, are a powerful and effective tool for Fox and the GOP.
But this is just their way to divide and conquer the people and how the Right gets people to vote against their own best interests.
Don't fall for it.
We need to leave the old party loyalties behind, as both parties are too awash in corporate cash to represent the needs of the American people. We need to find a new way, and that new way must arise from the people, from the bottom up and not from the top down.
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Post by irish2u2 on Jun 20, 2015 13:49:47 GMT -5
Just a quick correction. Racism will NEVER just disappear. No matter how hard we try, no matter how much progress is made hate finds a way to survive. Hate is the cockroach of human emotions. That is why I said it's a slow, evolutionary process to tear down the walls between races and I am not just talking white and black. All people. Part of the wonder of America is also the source of it's biggest problem. America is the Melting Pot of the world. Countries have enough issues with their own native citizens let alone a nation filled with immigrants from everywhere because unless you are a Native American you are an immigrant my friends. More or less we all have Visitor's Visas here.
Because we have such a vast pool of different people and cultures there is a lot more suspicion and mistrust. People are pretty simple creatures when you get down to it. They have their experiences, habits, customs, routines and culture. They have a perspective of life formed by all these factors. Do you want to know why the Stars and Bars flies over the South Carolina capital building? Because South Carolinians and Southerners in general are very protective of their culture and that flag, right or wrong, is part of their culture. An overwhelming majority of people who support the flying or displaying of that flag don't support slavery. They do support a perception of when things in the South were "better". A time when you were a South Carolinian first and an American second. They can't take a step back like most of us and see the bigger picture because to them our disgust at that flag is just another example of damn Yankees trying to tell them how to live and think and believe. It's a rationalization and Southerners are pretty good at rationalizing their actions.
Of course I just did something I hate. I labeled a whole bunch of people, most of them good people, because it was convenient to my point. Isn't that kind of bias the same as racism? In a way, yes it is. I illustrate the point that as a species we have a lot of evolving to do so we don't label groups of people. So we recognize everybody is an individual and that labels are just convenient and lazy ways of expressing an opinion that needs a little more work on it before it can be propagated to the masses. Because an individual believes Fox News (and you can substitute any news program in here) sucks does that mean anyone who likes Fox News sucks too? Isn't a bit more complicated than that? Fox News has lots of moving components so do the haters hate ALL those moving parts or just some of them? Do those who like Fox News maybe hate the same segments, the same commentators but like other aspects of the program? Does that make them all bad, 50% bad, marginally bad or just plain demented? The same is true of political parties. Are all Democrats bad? Are all Republicans bad? I think Nic (it may have been somebody else) pointed out the influence of corporate money on American politics. There is something we can fix so the people elected by the people, for the people can start representing the people again. The parties aren't necessarily bad but the rules allow them to be bad easier. The parties are all also a microcosm of American life where anybody who doesn't share your belief system is wrong. In extreme cases they are the enemy.
I also think America is missing the real solution in pursuit of a quick fix which seems to be what we always do when faced with big problems. I thought Jon Stewart's speech was stirring but like everyone else who says something has to be done they are remarkably secretive as to exactly what has to be done. We are all looking for that magic law that makes everything all right. It isn't going to happen folks.
I know what has to be done but what I think is not going to be popular because it will take generations. And in the end there still might be instances of unspeakable violence because we can't stop what people think. We can try and convert people slowly, generation by generation and we can hope that people realize that in order to co-exist we have to co-mingle more get to know each other better, but in the end, as a society, we have to recognize that real freedom means somebody may express an opinion you hate and abhor but it is their right to do so. Westboro Baptist Church may be a collection of the most despicable human beings in this country but in order for us to be truly free we have to allow these douchenozzles to spew their hate publicly. REAL freedom costs not just in blood and tears but in frustration because we have yet to acknowledge the one common thread of all us that ties us together and in some ways ties us up.
We are all individuals. We don't think always think alike. We certainly don't look alike. We don't always live the same way or have the same values and certainly our opinions vary dramatically about EVERYTHING. Diversity sounds like a great thing but in truth it's hard, damn work being a diverse society and keeping a lid on what amounts to a collective pressure cooker. IMHO it's worse nowadays because anybody can express themselves through technology and social media. Hate has met the Information Superhighway so those who hate can find each other faster and easier and they collaborate in their hate. Things are changing fast but people don't change that fast. We adapt slowly and yet almost every aspect of our lives is whizzing by us at the speed of light. So when something terrible like what happened at Emanuel AME Church occurs people put the brakes on. They see this terrible, horrific and tragic situation repeated time after time after time on the media. Remember Newtown? Or 9/11? There was a time when I couldn't bear to watch the news because I was getting emotionally hammered by these tragic events. Because people are now focused on these tragedies naturally they want it fixed. Fast. Life is fast and it seems like a simple fix, right? Take away all the guns. Lock up all the White Supremacists. Guard the churches. None of these measures will solve the problem. In fact it will make the problem worse because like everything in our society it will boil down to us versus them. Liberals versus Conservatives. Republicans versus Democrats. Blacks versus Whites. Christians versus Muslims. Doves versus Hawks.
So nothing can really be done to stop what happened in Charleston. A very tiny minority of people will express their rage and ignorance and hatred with bullets and blood. But everything has to be kept in perspective. We want to fix the situation that led to 9 innocent people being slaughtered in a Church. It can't be fixed anymore than a tornado, hurricane or tsunami can be stopped. It's nature. Human nature. Most people are good. Some are bad. Some potentially good people are led down the wrong path. In the end the same horrible tragedy keeps repeating itself only now it seems worse. Could there be a correlation to how easily and quickly news and social commentary is spread these days?
It's coming out today this kid, Dylan Roof, was not taught this hate in his home. He acquired it. Online. After the Trayvon Martin shooting. Like those idiot kids that joined ISIS here is one more disenfranchised kid who latches on to something and holds on for dear life and buys into the whole program. He has no identity so he acquires one. An identity that makes him feel powerful and superior. I could go into the various psychological reasons why this happens though insecurity is one of the larger factors but it doesn't matter. Good people are gone for no good reason. This kid will go to jail. And that damn flag will continue to fly over the Capital Bulding in Columbia, South Carolina. People of all races and backgrounds will continue to be innocent victims. It doesn't happen often but it happens way too much.
So is it racism or just the entire human condition under the microscope today? I don't know. I do know the only good that come out of this unspeakable tragedy is if people move a little closer together. People ask a few more questions and other people give them a few more answers and maybe we understand each other a little better. The media will say racism killed 9 black churchgoers in a historic Charleston Church. Dylann Roof killed those people. I'd rather concentrate on them, the victims, than this horribly misguided kid. As for racism every chip hammered out reduces the block of ignorance. Keep hammering away if not for yourselves and your children then for these 9 departed souls.
RIP
Rev. Clementa Pinckney Tywanza Sanders Cynthia Hurd Rev. Sharonda Coleman-Singleton Myra Thompson Ethel Lance Rev. Daniel Simmons Rev. DePayne Middleton-Doctor Susie Jackson
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Post by irish2u2 on Jun 20, 2015 13:50:49 GMT -5
BTW, I like Jon Stewart. Funny guy but I think I like him a lot more now.
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Post by axios on Jun 20, 2015 14:35:05 GMT -5
Babs- agree and disagree. Double electric fence or just E-Verify, would be easier.. Less cheap labor increases wages, supply and demand, it's common sense. The president has sold you out with the big business demublicans . The great society has done nothing but destroy the family unit. I like Rand Pauls ideas on the criminal sentencing and drug laws, which are skewed against poor minorioties. I also like his ideas on inner city industrial zones, to incentivize people to build and produce and create jobs in places that need it the most. The immigration system right now is not hurting me it's hurting the people who are here and need jobs that pay well.
Just a thought, I'm sure you think republicans don't care about minorioties, well, the democrats know you won't vote for anyone else; so they could care less about them other than throwing them some scraps and yelling the loudest when something happens. Under Obama, minorities haven't been this unemployed, this underpaid and this unhappy. I say we throw them all out, stop spending trillions elsewhere and help he people here, e-verify baby. Fck big business.
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Post by babylon5 on Jun 20, 2015 18:37:35 GMT -5
axios,
Just to be clear, I am not Democrat, nor, obvoiously, am I a Republican. But the GOP does pander to racists and that policy was called the Southern Strategy.
Tom Tomorrow: A Confederacy of Denial John Nichols: 2 Million Americans Petition Congress to Reject Fast Track Tom Engelhardt: Dear Class of 2015: You’ve Been Scammed! John Nichols: Martin O’Malley Attempts a Politics of Moral Duty
Exclusive: Lee Atwater’s Infamous 1981 Interview on the Southern Strategy
The forty-two-minute recording, acquired by James Carter IV, confirms Atwater’s incendiary remarks and places them in context. Rick Perlstein November 13, 2012
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It has become, for liberals and leftists enraged by the way Republicans never suffer the consequences for turning electoral politics into a cesspool, a kind of smoking gun. The late, legendarily brutal campaign consultant Lee Atwater explains how Republicans can win the vote of racists without sounding racist themselves:
You start out in 1954 by saying, “Nigger, nigger, nigger.” By 1968 you can’t say “nigger”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “Nigger, nigger.”
It doesn't get any clearer than that.
But I do agree that the Democrats also pander to their base, and that under Obama the African-American community hasn't seen much improvement at all, and this is a souce of some serious debate within the African-American community. Cornel West has been particularly harsh in his criticism of Obama, which I agree with, just for the record.
But West's criticisms of Obama, as well as mine are based on real issues, whereas over at Fox and with the GOP, many of their criticisms of Obama are pure fantasy. They pushed the idea that Obama is a Muslim, born in Kenya and he is implementing a socialist agenda, well that is pure BS. Death panels, Benghazi, supplying arms to Mexican drug lords...all pure BS, but it was spread in order to rally their base, which, sadly, eats that BS up, gets all riled up and then some of them act on that anger.
And that shit has got to stop. And the best way to stop it, is to call out anyone who pushes racist BS to further their political agenda.
As for the Democrats, they aren't much better. They have abandoned traditional liberalism and the party has moved further right and embraced the failed economic policies of neoliberalism, a.k.a., trickle-down economics, which hasn't worked in any country where it has been implemented.
But to scapegoat immigrants is, in my mind, not seeing the real issue. Most of the jobs that they take are jobs most Americans don't even want. Unless you want to work the fields picking grapes, or lettuce, or apples. Other find work in factories such as Hormel, and they get the most dangerous jobs which have a high incidence of injury. They are as much a victim of neoliberalism as we are.
You want to stop the flow of immigrants, then have the US support foreign governments who support union work in their countries. Their standard of living back in their native lands will rise and they will have less incentive to immigrate. And stop signing free trade acts. These free trade acts send US jobs overseas and the jobs that are created in the other countries pay less than those countries minimum wages and they work in legalized sweat shops.
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Post by jbnewyork162 on Jun 20, 2015 18:45:30 GMT -5
Jesus whether quoting Atwater, Ghandi, or Methusala please for the love of God stop saying the N Word. It's the quickest way for me to stop posting here period. I don't give a damn what the relationship I have with you all. Cut the shit and talk privately about this shit. I asked Axios even though I know he was using it to quote someone else but Nic and others I am only going to ask again. My eyes don't need to see or ears need to listen to that disgusting hate filled word blacks are always called for no god dammed reason. Stop!!!
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Post by babylon5 on Jun 20, 2015 18:49:09 GMT -5
Jason,
I do apologize, I only did it to provide historical context and to highlight that the GOP does pander to the racist elements in our society.
I promise never to use that word again.
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