|
|
Post by jbnewyork162 on Jun 29, 2021 14:40:44 GMT -5
I was just curious. We have so many assets, and all the teams around us either have cap money themselves, made trades or are going to be active, or have new coaches looking to get better.
What moves would be acceptable for Rose to make as far as money signed to whom and assets lost in trades, ie picks, Frank , Knox etc?
Who would you like to see as the future PG? Only Rose and Vildoza? Or Ball? Lillard? Sexton?
Should we trade up into the top 10 picks? Do you think we even have the assets to do so?
My main thing is if we only sign our own free agents and draft, I will be highly disappointed because again every other team is getting better. We won't be the 4th seed or higher again if we do only pedestrian moves.
|
|
|
|
Post by daglazer on Jun 29, 2021 19:49:49 GMT -5
I was just curious. We have so many assets, and all the teams around us either have cap money themselves, made trades or are going to be active, or have new coaches looking to get better. What moves would be acceptable for Rose to make as far as money signed to whom and assets lost in trades, ie picks, Frank , Knox etc? Who would you like to see as the future PG? Only Rose and Vildoza? Or Ball? Lillard? Sexton? Should we trade up into the top 10 picks? Do you think we even have the assets to do so? My main thing is if we only sign our own free agents and draft, I will be highly disappointed because again every other team is getting better. We won't be the 4th seed or higher again if we do only pedestrian moves.
For the first time in a long time, I have confidence in the front office. So, I trust that Rose and Thibs have a strategy and I will be OK with whatever they do.
That being said, if we can get Dame without giving up RJ, Randle, or Mitch, then I would do it. IMHO, they are untouchable. If not, I would like to target either Sexton or Garland. Either would be an improvement if Cleveland is willing.
I do want Rose back as I think he is a really great fit on this team.
I like Ball as a player now, but am concerned about the cost dollar-wise to get him.
As far as the draft goes, I do not have a good feel for this draft class. IMHO, it is filled with players who are never getting a second contract in the NBA outside of the top 5 or 6. Just do NOT draft any Duke player in the first round this year. None of them are worthy of a 1st round pick.
|
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Jun 30, 2021 6:59:10 GMT -5
DA, you’re concerned about the dollar cost of Ball, but to me he goes to the top of the class because basically ALL he would cost is dollars. The others are all trades and would require top talent and multiple draft picks. As badly as I would want a Lillard or a Mitchell, the first thing I would do is sign Ball to a restricted FA deal and hope they don’t match.
|
|
|
|
Post by jbnewyork162 on Jun 30, 2021 7:29:50 GMT -5
DA, you’re concerned about the dollar cost of Ball, but to me he goes to the top of the class because basically ALL he would cost is dollars. The others are all trades and would require top talent and multiple draft picks. As badly as I would want a Lillard or a Mitchell, the first thing I would do is sign Ball to a restricted FA deal and hope they don’t match. I agree. All the talk about sign and trade is malarkey because they can't have all their money tied up in 3 players in Ingram, Ball and Zion. |
|
|
|
Post by ReneNYG1 on Jun 30, 2021 12:44:52 GMT -5
It really depends on cost and right now everything seems at a very high cost in players and picks so I pass and stand pat the deals will get cheaper.I would do Knox and a 2022 1st for Sexton but I think they want more Dame is too costly all the free agents want sick money pass,maybe do Powel and Trent Jr and Olynk as free agent by the way he's on team Canada with RJ.I want to trade for Brunson but Dallas loves him and cost is too high as with other player Ball wants 20 per pass Schrouder wants 25 per pass,their are few good ones and people are going to overpay.Draft I move up for Boughnight otherwise stand pat and get Butler and McBride.Love Luca can't wait to see him in action.I do Lowery two year 50 million deal all day by the way.I value good guys we have a great group don't want to throw in bad apple.I would approach Mitch's camp about an extension and feel them out he switched between fives guys and if thier problems there I would consider moving Mitch for Turner,Myles is awesome player who would fit perfect ,I love Mitch and will do everything to work that out but that would be backup option there.Frankie can take a fucken hike I'm sick of Frankie he can go downtown and sell french hats and be fine.Powell would be huge character guy to add and Trent upside is exciting as so would be our picks.
|
|
|
|
Post by jbnewyork162 on Jun 30, 2021 14:04:11 GMT -5
Well two things that stand out to me.
One is it costs to get what you want. No player is injury proof nor wants to sign for Circus peanuts. So we want a top 6 player you pay the toll and build from there. The Carmelo trade has most Knicks fans on PTSD watch but he wasn't a top 6 player then although he was elite and we didn't have smart people running our front office then.
2nd thing that will stick out to me is if we ONLY sign our own free agents and draft exactly where we are alone, we will not only not get higher than probably 7th seed next season, but it will also piss me off.
I know Thibs isn't gonna play 4 rookies after not playing a 3rd and 4th year player in Knox and Frank. So we have to do something that's an upgrade from last year talent or it won't be a productive offseason.
At some point we have to cash these chips in.
|
|
|
|
Post by irish2u2 on Jun 30, 2021 14:52:27 GMT -5
What a great question!!!
I'm firmly in the "stay the course" segment of Knicks fandom. I think it awesome we have such a plethora of choices but that doesn't mean the Knicks should abandon their build it from the ground up approach. I see no trade, FEASIBLE free agent signing or draft choice that gets the team to the Promised Land next season.
I know all the talk is about Dame but some basketball guru babe on Twitter said it best. Why bring Dame in when the cost to get him will make the Knicks no better and likely worse than his current team? Besides Philly should be burning up the phone lines to Portland offering Ben Simmons and whatever to get Dame.
Here is what I would love to see the Knicks do this summer.
Keep Derrick Rose. And Taj Gibson. And Reggie Bullock only because the cost should be low. I'm on the fence about Nerlens Noel. Depends on the offers for him.
Package picks to move up in the draft but only if they can get Davion Mitchell, James Bouknight, Scottie Barnes, Moses Moody or Kai Jones. I don't agree with DA about the depth of this draft. I think the first four picks can be all star caliber players but I see star potential in others and rotation level performance in quite a few more.
I like the idea of trading for Colin Sexton as long as the core players (Randle, RJ, Mitch, IQ and Obi) are not part of the trade. I like Norman Powell and Kelly Oubre as free agent targets and I'm warming up a bit to Gary Trent, Jr. and maybe even Lonzo Ball. Maybe. 
I am NOT down with trading for Lillard. I am NOT down with signing Chris Paul, Kyle Lowry, DeMar DeRozan, Spencer Dinwiddie or Victor Oladipo. None of these players makes the Knicks a championship player now so concentrate on developing and acquiring youth while adding talent.
My perfect summer could be keeping Rose and a combination of adding Sexton, either Oubre or Powell depending on the draft, or signing both Powell and Oubre if a Sexton deal can't be worked out and adding one of the 5 rookies I highlighted. Then pick and choose amongst our free agents that are left.
A little less than perfect is over bidding for Lonzo Ball and then signing either Powell or Oubre. Either way the Knicks should move up the draft because as Jason already astutely noted there is no way Thibs plays more than one rookie player.
Add talent. Stay young. Spend smart. Be PATIENT!!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 17:11:20 GMT -5
DA, you’re concerned about the dollar cost of Ball, but to me he goes to the top of the class because basically ALL he would cost is dollars. The others are all trades and would require top talent and multiple draft picks. As badly as I would want a Lillard or a Mitchell, the first thing I would do is sign Ball to a restricted FA deal and hope they don’t match. I agree. All the talk about sign and trade is malarkey because they can't have all their money tied up in 3 players in Ingram, Ball and Zion. And if N O plans to use the tank at PG, then they have no need for Ball. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 17:13:36 GMT -5
Well two things that stand out to me. One is it's costs to get what you want. No.player is injury proof nor wants to sign for Circus peanuts. So we want a top 6 player you pay the toll and build from there. The Carmelo trade has most Knicks fans on PTSD watch but he wasn't a top 6 player then although he was elite and we didn't have smart people running our front office then. 2nd thing that will stick out to me is if we ONLY sign our own free agents and draft xactly where are alone. If we only do that we will not only not get higher than probably 7th seed next season but it will also piss me off. I know Thibs isn't gonna play 4 rookies after not playing a 3rd and 4th year player in Knox and Frank. So we have to do something that's an upgrade from last year talent or it won't be a productive offseason. At some point we have to cash these chips in. At one point Ainge had a bunch of chips but didn't really cash them in. |
|
|
|
Post by ReneNYG1 on Jun 30, 2021 17:16:16 GMT -5
The problem with trading up is you need a partner and the cost.If that can be done yes ,the move is to trade up,two things have to happen the guy we want to be there is there and the is a reasonable trade option.We have to explore all avenues to get better, weighting the options is key to maximizing your assets.I can promise you one thing will happen is that's it's going to be exciting times at draft time.
|
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Jul 1, 2021 6:42:39 GMT -5
Watching RJ shine for Team Canada makes me want to keep him forever, but if you can get an elite superstar with RJ as the centerpiece it’s tough to say no depending on what else they would want. Jason makes literally the perfect point about Knicks fans having PTSD after the Melo trade. The problem wasn’t the trade it was the failure to put the talent around him. And to be honest, Melo was part of the problem here, because he was a superstar that couldn’t attract other great players to play with him for whatever reason. I don’t mind Irish’s patience plan, but I don’t want my next couple of years to be hoping we can get past the first round and hoping New Jersey doesn’t win it all. I’m all for adding Ball, but I absolutely would spend a lot of money by bringing in a clutch player who can win you games when they’re on the line, like DeRozen or even Dinwiddie at a lower price. And I’d spend on a veteran point guard like Lowry if Ball falls through. Dammit I’ve suffered enough! This Knicks season might have been a bit fluky, teams looked past us and we got extraordinary play out of role players. We could easily regress. It would be close to impossible to build a title contender just this offseason, but look at what the Hawks did with just cap space and a shrewd trade or two. Why can’t that be the Knicks next year? What do they have that the Knicks don’t? A superstar that if the game is close will finish you off. That’s all we need. Lillard, Beal or Mitchell if any of them are available. I really go back and forth on this, even during the same post! Go get that big star or add pieces and keep our young core together. Like I said, the only thing that would make me unhappy is just adding the point guard like Ball of even Sexton and saying we’re done. If that’s the route we go we need to surround them with better veteran talent.
|
|
|
|
Post by irish2u2 on Jul 1, 2021 9:14:08 GMT -5
Watching RJ shine for Team Canada makes me want to keep him forever, but if you can get an elite superstar with RJ as the centerpiece it’s tough to say no depending on what else they would want. Jason makes literally the perfect point about Knicks fans having PTSD after the Melo trade. The problem wasn’t the trade it was the failure to put the talent around him. And to be honest, Melo was part of the problem here, because he was a superstar that couldn’t attract other great players to play with him for whatever reason. I don’t mind Irish’s patience plan, but I don’t want my next couple of years to be hoping we can get past the first round and hoping New Jersey doesn’t win it all. I’m all for adding Ball, but I absolutely would spend a lot of money by bringing in a clutch player who can win you games when they’re on the line, like DeRozen or even Dinwiddie at a lower price. And I’d spend on a veteran point guard like Lowry if Ball falls through. Dammit I’ve suffered enough! This Knicks season might have been a bit fluky, teams looked past us and we got extraordinary play out of role players. We could easily regress. It would be close to impossible to build a title contender just this offseason, but look at what the Hawks did with just cap space and a shrewd trade or two. Why can’t that be the Knicks next year? What do they have that the Knicks don’t? A superstar that if the game is close will finish you off. That’s all we need. Lillard, Beal or Mitchell if any of them are available. I really go back and forth on this, even during the same post! Go get that big star or add pieces and keep our young core together. Like I said, the only thing that would make me unhappy is just adding the point guard like Ball of even Sexton and saying we’re done. If that’s the route we go we need to surround them with better veteran talent.
Who out there immediately makes the Knicks a championship contender? Dame? Beal? Leonard? The answer is nobody guarantees we can even get past Philly and Brooklyn in our own division.
There are several factors that have to be remembered with RJ. He's super smart. He works insanely hard on his game with huge improvement from last season to this season. He just turned 21 and he is durable having played all 72 games this season. I don't want this kid to be traded unless we are talking Doncic, Tatum or Booker and we all know that isn't happening. I see RJ as having a Klay Thompson like role on the Knicks. I don't see a Steph Curry level of skills nor do we have anybody who approaches that level of superstar which is why management must be patient. Golden State developed their core players albeit with a superstar player in Curry that were all drafted. They even won a title with drafted players but still had the cap room and the panache to attract KD and win some more. Keep RJ. We still haven't seen his best game yet.
The more I reflect on the path the Knicks should take the more enamored I become of the same formula that propelled the Knicks this season which is grit, hard work, team play and a sum of the parts approach. We just need some more talented "parts" and not necessarily superstar level players. Especially since the superstars these days seem to be so fragile when you need them the most.
Get me DURABLE and productive ballers who will be there when you need them. I'm all about free agency and hesitant to make trades unless our core players (Randle, RJ, Mitch, IQ and Obi) are protected. Guys like Beal and Dame make the Knicks better but not next level better when you factor in the cost. Get me guys Thibs can coach which is why I like Norman Powell so much. He's a guy who responds to tough coaching. Guys like Kyrie Irving do not. |
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Jul 2, 2021 7:08:40 GMT -5
Irish, the incremental approach you’ve mentioned will lead to a lot of thrilling moments, only to once again be met with failure in the playoffs. And while we’re adding pieces, the superstars of the league will be the ones who knock this team out every year. If you want to build slowly this year I’m good, but we can’t continually sit on our hands while the elite players of this league sign with our rivals. There’s a big free agent class next year and if we don’t add one or preferably more of these stars then or earlier by trade, we will be mediocre at best for years down the road. It’s a star driven league and we’re going nowhere if our best player is Julius Randle. We all fell in love with this year’s team but that’s mainly because of the awful years that preceded them. Is this the time to jump or is it next year? I’ll leave that decision to Leon Rose, Wes and company, but like I said, we can’t sit idly by while these great players go everywhere except here.
|
|
|
|
Post by jbnewyork162 on Jul 2, 2021 7:51:25 GMT -5
Irish, the incremental approach you’ve mentioned will lead to a lot of thrilling moments, only to once again be met with failure in the playoffs. And while we’re adding pieces, the superstars of the league will be the ones who knock this team out every year. If you want to build slowly this year I’m good, but we can’t continually sit on our hands while the elite players of this league sign with our rivals. There’s a big free agent class next year and if we don’t add one or preferably more of these stars then or earlier by trade, we will be mediocre at best for years down the road. It’s a star driven league and we’re going nowhere if our best player is Julius Randle. We all fell in love with this year’s team but that’s mainly because of the awful years that preceded them. Is this the time to jump or is it next year? I’ll leave that decision to Leon Rose, Wes and company, but like I said, we can’t sit idly by while these great players go everywhere except here. I agree wholeheartedly. I've said this elsewhere as well. At some point we have to cash in the chips that we have been stacking and gamble on a move that might be risky. Especially of we regress this season and don't get anywhere as many wins or the 4th seed again(which I mean Atlanta was the true 4th or better seed for sure), how will that look to free agents even next summer, if all we did the previous one was sign ONLY role players. It's a conundrum for sure. But I also have said before Rose didn't bring in World Wide Wes to be mediocre. And also some Knicks fans if not most, have Melo trade PTSD. We have smarter people running the franchise now and like the Lakers when they got AD or the room that Miami made to get Lebron, Wade and Bosh fit, sometimes you have to REALLY give in order to get. I think only maybe the Spurs and the Warriors in the last 20 years built their team organically and even then the Warriors even added eventually Kevin Durant the best closer in basketball after they won a few. We don't realize how tough it is to run a team. I've always wanted the Knicks GM job but I don't envy it at all. |
|
|
|
Post by irish2u2 on Jul 2, 2021 8:52:23 GMT -5
Gentlemen
The Knicks are NOT in a position yet to make that giant leap from pretender to contender. The time to cash in our chips, as Jason puts it, hasn't yet arrived. I do agree that whatever capital the Knicks are amassing needs to be spent. But not now. Brooklyn still has a good two years left in their window and depending on what they do with Ben Simmons we can can absolutely state Philly will be contending too.
Then there is Milwaukee and that is a model I follow closely because they have only ONE superstar surrounded by a lot of complimentary talent. Mark is right that superstar talent gets you into the contending circle. But how many superstars? The Brooklyn model seems ideal till you factor in age and injuries. The Lakers did it with 2 superstars as did the Warriors. I think the Knicks need at least one superstar level, top 10 at least, type player.
So what can the Knicks do to get that special player? I say keep amassing talent and be patient. They are young and still nowhere near their potential. The Knicks window is likely about 2 years which coincides with maybe Luka Doncic being available in the free agent or some other similar type star not named Leonard and not getting Social Security ads in the mail. Put together enough talent on the team with some cap flexibility and then sign the guy who puts the team over the top because most importantly free agent superstars will strongly consider a Knick team with talent, coaching and a smart management. Milwaukee has a bunch of real good players and one superstar. Maybe we can't get a star the magnitude of Antetokounmpo but the Knicks can field a supporting cast that is maybe better than the Bucks by simply staying the course and spending our capital smartly. Plus keep in mind the Knicks have a couple of secret weapons in Leon Rose and World Wide Wes with their connections with players.
Dame or Beal or even Leonard (especially with his load management requirements) don't put the Knicks into the winner's circle. Not now. I think it especially noteworthy how many superstar types have gotten injured during the playoffs this year which is another reason to build quality depth first.
Trades are good but not mega trades. I prefer the Knicks be in a position to spend money to get their superstar which is why I advocate going after Sexton who gives the Knicks a PG who can score and is STILL on his rookie deal.
|
|
